welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Cathy
virtually alone in the British media The
Guardian newspaper has broken story
after story with the revelations of
Edward Snowden the NSA whistleblower
would have been blowing his whistle to
an empty room if not for them our guest
on Sputnik this week played a key role
in bringing Snowden in from the cold and
to the attention of anyone who was
actually paying attention to what our
governments are doing in our name and
often against us
he was the guardians Washington
correspondent at the time and remains
one of its most senior reporters you and
McCaskill you and welcome to the Sputnik
you and I have known each other for a
very long time but I was mildly
surprised when I read Luke Harding's
book the Snowden files to discover the
key role that you had played in all of
this the editor quite correctly thought
that a senior Scots reporter like you
was definitely the best person to go to
Hong Kong and check out the bona fides
of Edward Snowden tell us if you would
about that and I was in the Guardians
New York office and afraid the afternoon
I was thinking about the weekend of
thinking that we're going to lunch and
I've one of the Guardian editors Janine
Gibson called me over and says I want
you to go to Hong Kong tomorrow and like
any good reporter I said sure I don't
know what it was about and and then she
briefed me and said look a Glenn
Greenwald Guardian columnist Laura
Petraeus a documentary filmmaker have
been in touch with someone claiming to
be a spy and he's prepared to hand over
a secret top secret documents but we'd
like you to go with them and check out
whether this is for real or a fruitcake
you know at the time I thought was just
going for a couple of days I thought
this can't be real
you know when I turn up they're
discovered it's um you know 56 year old
intelligence veteran with disgruntled
over the way he's been treated and you
know there won't be much to it not be
back in America you know and Monday of
two
we arrived in Hong Kong and discover you
know really in the middle of a historic
story which is running and running so
your first surprise I think was his age
it was a again when we went there I
don't up a picture of him as I saw a
grizzly 50 60 year old veteran and then
it's not that the time was 29 we saw
thinner skin he actually looks about 22
or 23 and he starts telling us he
trained with the US Special Forces he
worked for the CIA in Geneva he walked
for the NSC in Japan he walked the NSC
and Hawaii not thinking this isn't
possible you could possibly have done
I'm interested in the human side of this
story what was he like as a person him
lc3 I think it took a lot courage he's a
nice wife paid plenty of money he's
living in Hawaii nice girlfriend a job
that commands you know a lot so respect
within the US establishment and he gave
it all up you've seen the huge dress
code to Hong Kong he'd never met any of
us any of the gentleman's before he
wanted the story we didn't really know
people in the media so he flies to Hong
Kong as soon as he flies to Hong Kong he
knows the CIA and the NSA security
police I go I start hunting for him and
he's done this he's gone to Hong Kong in
the hope that he'll meet journalists who
will spread the word she was taking a
huge gamble if they caught him before if
given the interviews the chances are he
would have been locked up and we'd never
heard from again
what was his motivation than and giving
all this up and well it's certainly not
for the money because he's knew you
hadn't attempted cash any it hasn't
written a book or everything all of that
and he's not egotistical either he's a
fairly shy and you know for the first
six months he was fairly a reticent he
did this over disillusioned with the
intelligence services he's a Republican
he
belongs to the libertarian wing of the
Republican Party is not a typical
Guardian reader I think what triggered
on the the wing of the Republican Party
he belongs to believes in small
government their beliefs and privacy
believes in the Constitution and he
realized once he was inside the system
how widespread surveillance was that
extended to every citizen every citizen
in America and they knew for him this
which is totally unacceptable for him he
still regards himself as a patriot and
and for the NAC and the intelligence
services were doing was unpatriotic
indeed he thinks the other traitors got
him and a lot of people agree with that
now you've been around the block and
seen many things but even you must have
been startled by the scale of the
perfidy that he was describing well he
gave us he gave the Guardian there were
60,000 documents and the single page
document some of these one single
document can run to a couple of thousand
pages you know and he gave more
documents to Glenn and Laura and he put
these together and you start reading
through it you just realized the skill I
mean there's almost nowhere in the world
the the NSA and the British equivalent
GCHQ can't listen they're not you know
our intercept emails phone record Skype
Facebook me I went there to Hong Kong
naive you know thinking okay maybe they
may look at emails but maybe not know
you realize they could didn't intercept
anything is it or does well they've got
the capability and the use that
capability yes it's a matter of debate
just how widespread that is the NSA and
GCHQ continues to insist we only use us
we were looking for terrorists or
criminals and as long as you haven't
done anything wrong you get nothing to
worry about
people like Snowden say well it's much
more pervasive than that and lots of
famous people again they check their
data and you're vulnerable you once
you've got access to your personal
details you know you should be concerned
about it he then went to Moscow and he
recites they're now on a temporary
asylum
what lies ahead for him no one has the
answer to that
his visa runs till the end of July and
the expectation is that the Russian
government will extend it and they've
said that if for some reason they
decided no we don't want them anymore
he's got a year in which you can appeal
that decision so he's good Lee is good
more than a year left in Russia the
danger for mr. Dean would much rather be
in Western Europe say Germany are even
back in the u.s. if the US were prepared
to do some deal and offer him clemency
but he's still better off in Russia than
sitting in a Supermax Penitentiary and
Colorado at least unlike Chelsea Manning
who whose voice we never really had and
we were never able to flesh out
personality at least with Snowden he's a
voice there and he's capable of changing
the public perception of him he's
capable participating in the debate so
you know for the time being you know
Russia is the best place for me we
debated after Hong Kong we debated what
would have been a good option for him
you know could he have gone ties when
could he have gone to Venezuela yeah but
no we realize actually there was nowhere
even if he was in Venezuela or Iceland
the Americans were capable Putin enough
economic pressure on you know three
minutes of the airplane to the ground
like we did yeah exactly
not that he was in the back of the plane
so this the only two places he would
have relative safety or Russia or China
was hard to thing anywhere else in the
world is he lonely well I stalk to him
occasionally
he's very guarded he'll talk happily
about more things he's very often the 10
he's careful about talking about his
life and
it's not really wanted to be I hope that
you'll one day some Western European
country might given my Asylum but I
can't think of any Western country
that's prepared to stand up to the US
nor I discussion know you're from
Glasgow and I spent the best years of my
life in Glasgow and this very week
Glasgow University inaugurated the same
Edward Snowden as the rector an ancient
and elected position at Glasgow
University
that gives me some pride does it fill
you with some joy also yeah it does I
spoke to Snowden about this and I kept
Sinton this is a really big deal you
probably remember as well but Jimmy Reed
in the early 70s this was a leader of
the shipyard workers in the upper Clyde
and when the students applause give us a
class give us this used to be a fairly
conservative university when they
elected Jimmy Reed a communist as the
rector they're sending a signal they
were endorsing a REIT and that's what
they've done with Snowden for a lot of
the world's Snowden as a traitor for
other people he's a whistleblower so
what the classic university students
have done is we're saying we think this
guy's a whistleblower not a traitor that
he's done a public service so I'm proud
of Glasgow students for doing this there
is also the matter of the cheering of
the University Court which is an ancient
privilege of the rector I think there
are grounds next time you're talking to
him for saying that he has a protected
position as the rector of Glasgow
University and might be able to fly in
and out of glass were to cheer the court
I'm not sure that any government would
either be wise or even perhaps entitled
to stop him I had thought I thought
maybe he could participate through the
internet but flying in is a is a very
good thought if you could get into
Britain
he then you could apply for asylum the
downside of that is the British
government has been the most reactionary
of all the governments involved in the
Snowden saga worse even an Australian
government compared to America you know
look at the actions the British
government has taken the arrest of David
Miranda get into the Guardian and
destroying their hard drives the the
language the as far as I know there's a
criminal investigation still underway
into the Guardian journalists including
me they've been really heavy-handed
people involved in the Snowden story the
Americans are reluctant to come here
even when they're prepared to go to
America
so perversely I'm not sure Britain is a
great destination for Snowden Scotland
however maybe you and McCaskill thank
you very much indeed for joining us on
the sputnik coming up after the break
we'll be looking at one of the world's
stranger phenomenon Christian Zionism
and with one of the bravest most
honorable Christian gentlemen the
Reverend Stephen sizer we'll be right
back
welcome back to Sputnik Easter has come
and gone but no prospect yet of
resurrection for the Palestinian people
who remain besieged occupied or even
annexed and yet and yet the world does
nothing about it
even the Christian clerics are by and
large silent about the foreign
occupation of the Holy Land the
desecration of many of its holy places
and even the siege of Bethlehem the
birthplace of Jesus itself which is
surrounded by checkpoints and an
apartheid wall one of the exceptions to
that dismal rule is the Reverend Stephen
sizer with courage and eloquence and
airy Edition he has spoken out
persistently consistently against the
Zionist occupation of Palestine and
Christian complicity with it he's the
author of a couple of cracking books
Christian Zionism roadmap to Armageddon
we'll talk about that in a minute
and Zions Christian soldiers the Bible
Israel and the church and I'm glad to
see Reverend Stephen joins us now
Reverend thank you for joining us on the
sputnik we could talk all day about the
state of Palestine or the state in
Palestine but because I've got you here
I want to ask you how has it come to
pass the in the land of Jesus himself
the Christian leadership and the
politicians who profess great affection
for Christian civilization are silent at
best and complicit at worse than the
Calvary of the Palestinian people how do
you explain that there's a number of
reasons for that George we're dealing
with two whammies we're dealing with
guilt for the Holocaust and fear of
anti-semitism and they used effectively
by Zionists to silence criticism of
Israel's colonization of Palestine it
goes back to the 19th century when some
very eccentric
leaders began to predict that the Jews
would go back to the lands Christian
nation and they saw this as part of
Britain's blessing to the world we were
civilizing the world with colonization
introducing people to bridge way of life
and the Christian faith and so that was
that was why Britain got behind tsiyon
ISM because it further Britain's
interests in the Middle East
competing with France and Germany and
the Zionists has recognized that Britain
was going to support them and that's
where we ended up with a Balfour
Declaration and the broken promises
Britain made to the Arabs as much as to
the Jews and the paradox of course is
that many Jews can see this very clearly
both religious Jews and secular Jews who
oppose this Zionist idea of leaving
their own countries and going to live on
stolen land in someone else's well they
realize their act three and a four act
play and you know it's a Christian
agenda Zionism is predominately a
Christian heresy not Jewish there are
nine ten times more Christian Zionists
in the world and Jewish indeed I wanted
to come to that because one of the
things I constantly have to deal with is
people talking about the Jewish lobby in
the United States which of course is not
a Jewish lobbies vary the number of
Zionist Jews in the United States is
tiny compared to the number of Zionist
Christians and that's why I was caught
by the sub heading subtitle in your book
roadmap to Armageddon one of the reasons
tens of millions of if you don't mind me
saying so crazed evangelical Christians
in this picture in the United States is
that they want to get us to our mageddon
yes it's it's a product of a Manichaean
dualistic view of the world the good
guys and the bad guys and we're the good
guys obviously and if you go back the
beginning of the 20th century with the
rise of communism you found that evil
was it was equated with communism
atheism
and and the persecution of the church
and so right through to the 50s and 60s
with particular in America you know with
McCarthyism it was the free West against
Russia and communism and and Israel was
part of the free West it was our our
beachhead into the Middle East and Syria
and Egypt and other countries align
themselves more with with Russia but as
as Russia declined in influence in terms
of communism Islam took over that that
role as the as the phonic
personification of evil and so today you
find that you know the the calves of the
books change but the content stays the
same and then changed the end of the
chapters you go back to the 50s and 60s
Christian Zionists were talking about
Saddam Hussein being the Antichrist
because he was trying to rebuild Babylon
and he even looked like Nebuchadnezzar
they said but when when he when he dies
Osama bin Laden becomes the Antichrist
so you've got to have the demon side
you've got to have the bad guys what
biblical or scriptural base do these
Christian Zionists draw this from well
Jesus called us to be peacemakers not
widow-makers
and what they're doing is they're taking
promises God made to the Jewish people
four thousand years ago through Abraham
and they're applying them to today as if
Jesus never came and so that the church
and the coming of Jesus is a parenthesis
to God's continuing purposes for the
Jewish people and so they take passages
out of the Old Testament and apply them
to today when you know it's like a
cheese grater they're not going through
the grid of the New Testament they're
not going through the grid of the
teaching of Jesus who called us to be
ambassadors for peace to to love our
enemies and pray for those who persecute
us as their way to to change their heart
and mind not to kill them but to love
them if you like into the kingdom we
reflected on the Christian American
Christians how is it with the British
Christian communities how far they
create for our getting and indeed
beliefs of only a minority but they're
very vociferous and the Zionists welcome
their support because they tend to be
very vociferous even though that by
definition the Evangelist doesn't like
Jews very much I mean the they they
believe the Armageddon will come and the
Jews will have to convert to
Christianity or be killed some do but
you find a range of opinions and within
the kind of Christian Zionist circles I
encounter they've elevated the Jewish
people to a special place and God's
purposes either with a view that they
will come to see the light when Jesus
returns or they are accepted by virtue
of their pedigree by their virtue of
their race you know they are the chosen
people and therefore they get it they
get a pass a free pass as it were yeah
but either way they have politicized the
kingdom of heaven if you like and their
act their active agenda is very concrete
it's a lobby Congress Lobby Parliament
it is to finance the emigration of
Russian Jews to Palestine it is to
support the settlement program so there
are twinning between churches and
settlements adopt a settlement fund them
feet you know feed them clothe them
protect them they're seeking to rebuild
the temple destroy the Dome of the rock
and rebuild the temple so you've got an
alliance with extreme jurist groups that
want to achieve that all in the belief
that Jesus will not come by himself we
must bring him by by fighting by
supporting his chosen people
the existence of a substantial
Palestinian Christian population and we
could extend this into Syria for example
where you have a very cherished
and substantial number of Christians of
most ancient heritage yes appears
invisible to the Christian world it's
problematic I
to Christians even clerics who say
they're off to Israel to visit Bethlehem
yes they don't seem to care about the
fact that Christian Palestinians are
oppressed occupied besieged annexed just
exactly the same as Muslim Palestinians
are they're either blind to the reality
they have a romantic notion about Israel
the land flowing with milk and honey and
they equate the Christian Church with
the European denominations Anglican
Methodist Baptists Roman Catholic
Italian so on so it's either because the
indigenous Christian community is is
hidden there there they're not aware of
them or if they are they clearly create
a problem and so what you find is
churches in the West will support
humanitarian work among the Palestinians
will support a hospital will will put
money into a blind school or something
where they're not dealing with a
structural injustice of the occupation
now you and I have both been subject to
the calumny that what we see in support
of the Palestinian people and justice is
somehow anti-semitic when nothing could
be further from the truth now how do you
personally cope with it you've actually
been witch hunted more than me I have
other means of defending myself but
within the church you've been which
hunted on this people trying to drive
you out of your ministry and so on have
you cope with them when you see the
truth it's hard to unsee it and when
you've experienced what the Palestinians
are suffering when you've when you've
lived with them when you've slept in
their homes you've eaten at their tables
and you've and you've experienced the
the the aggression of the Israeli
authorities the so-called IDF you know
their army when you've been fired at you
know teargas
sound bombs as I have when you've
experienced the raw racism of Zionism
you can't go to sleep at night unless
you maintain your perseverance in doing
what you think is right the you know
distance helps refine your arguments it
helps helps you become stronger and so
actually the opposition I've faced the
complaints the criticisms have only
purified my my my passion and my zeal to
do what I believe is right
repudiate racism I repeated
anti-semitism but there is a basic
injustice going on and we cannot it
cannot hide eyes from it you're a true
Christian gentleman the Reverend Stephen
sizer thank you for joining us on this
but Nick and now it's your turn to tell
us what you think through the portals of
social media what's rattling gayatri
well we received a lot of support for
Snowden or not with the feet splashed
access that Snowden reveals that power
Trump's hypocrisy once over reason
materialism over life death over
equality ram oscar o says that the good
guys aren't good anymore only thing you
can do is vote out the mainstream
politicians finally in response to a
Snowden's inauguration as director James
Colin says congratulation to a true hero
we should never rest until he and Julian
Assange are free and the guilty guilt if
I could smuggle them up my jumper and
smuggle them out of there
I promise you I would me too well that's
it for this week which unfortunately
means that's all we've got time for keep
in touch with us though on Twitter on Rt
underscore Sputnik and you can like us
on Facebook on Sputnik on Russia today
it's goodbye for me Gayathri and for me
George Galloway it's been marvelous